your man's the only guy who thinks tax reform means higher tax rates. you're the only one. >> can i please respond here? >> i want you to. >> in every single budget he has produced, there has been a cap on itemized deductions for people above $250,000. they can only deduct the 28%, not 35% or 39%. and it raises half a trillion dollars over ten years. it's in every one of his budgets. please don't tell me it's not. i can show you where it is. >> arthur laffer, explain this to me. >> the key here is lowering rates. jared, i do agree with you, we need to raise taxes. but we don't need to raise tax rates. what we need to do is increase growth output employment and get -- you can't balance the budget on the backs of the unemployed. it just doesn't happen. >> i agree. art, you are 100% right. and by the way, i'm not where you guys are on the lower -- >> you will be with us soon, jared. >> you're elasticties for your tax rate declines are way too large, in my humble opinion. but i'm ready to go with you if you can identify how you're going to fill that hole. m